Sophie says: “My insight is that I would love to see more collaboration between PPC and SEO skills, and the fundamental data points that we both use. My tip would be to really leverage those PPC skills, and your PPC teams around you, to identify those opportunities for SEO – and to collaborate in general.

If your paid media team or your PPC freelancer is doing a really good job, they'll have a really good idea of top-performing non-brand keywords, those seasonal peaks and troughs in demand, any opportunities where there are those high-converting keywords with maybe low visibility, keywords with low ad strengths that may have some opportunities with landing pages or ad copy, and also the messaging that really works for their users as well.

I think, if PPC and SEO can harness those data points together, it makes it more effective and more efficient for everyone involved.”

Should SEOs not be scared of PPC? I mean that in a nice way, in that marketing channels are generally a little bit protective of things that work really well for them.

So, if PPC maybe have some keywords that are performing exceptionally well, are they not going to be a little bit concerned with giving those to SEOs to try and almost take them over, so PPC doesn't work so well for them?

“That's a really good question, and I think that highlights something that we see a lot, which is almost SEO and PPC battling against each other in that sense. But I think what I'm really trying to do is encourage is that collaboration between the two because the ultimate goal is the same, right?

You're all working to drive that targeted relevant traffic towards the website; it's just two different methods of doing so. If we can get and encourage PPC and SEO to work together, you can actually make both of them far more efficient.

I would hope that SEOs and those in PPC aren't scared of each other. I would love for them to see that and work together a bit more, definitely.”

Would you recommend a goal that incorporates data from both SEO and PPC, so everyone's contributing to the same bottom line?

“Absolutely, yeah. Again, you're working for the same company, the same brand, the same advertiser.

I would definitely suggest not having so many KPIs in silo. You may have those individual KPIs. For example, with SEO, there are obviously organic keywords, how many of them are ranking, the ranking factor, and things like that. But, ultimately, the goal is getting targeted relevant traffic to the website from both tactics.

I would really encourage people to work together on that as much as possible and share those insights to make each other more efficient and more effective.”

How should SEOs be defining the opportunities that they should be testing from the PPC data? Is it simply a matter of looking at what keywords are bringing in the most traffic or are there better ways to do that?

“Whether SEOs are working with a PPC team in-house, an agency like us, or a freelancer, if they're doing their jobs properly, the PPCs will have a good idea of which keywords they may be struggling with, and which keywords perform really well for them.

Again, I think that collaboration and that conversation is really important. If SEOs are working on their own, they can actually do their own PPC keyword research in that sense, using those free tools out there like Google Keyword Planner or Microsoft Keyword Planner. In doing that, and looking at Google Analytics and what they're seeing from paid search, you can really identify those quick wins and high-value opportunities.

Whether they're working with a team or not, SEOs can definitely leverage those PPC skills and PPC tools to make their jobs easier and to identify those opportunities.”

Great. Okay. So, once an opportunity has been identified – they've selected some keyword phrases that they would like to test – it would be great to get a feel for what the testing process looks like.

“Yeah, of course. Some of the biggest opportunities that can come from PPC and PPC data would be things like those high-converting keywords, maybe with low visibility – or maybe keywords that actually do convert really well but have quite low quality scores which can be impacted by landing pages and landing page content and things like that.

Again, it depends on which keywords you're going after and whether you're repurposing your current content as an SEO or creating new content.

The KPIs there would really be traffic volume but also traffic quality and, if there's a difference there. We'd like to see, from the PPC side, improved quality scores and things like that as well, which we can actually see relatively quickly when changes are made to the landing pages.

Between those sorts of things – the traffic volume, traffic quality, conversion rates – those are the key metrics that will inform whether it's working or not for both SEO and PPC.”

Okay, got you. So, you get PPC to work more closely with you under the guise of being a false friend, you say, ‘I can improve this landing page for you. It'll help your paid search, honestly. Give me all your data and I'll help you with your landing pages.’

“I really want to push this collaboration piece, and they are so often treated in silo (SEO and PPC) and therefore they work in silo and their KPIs are in silo, but generally and genuinely both of them affect each other as well, as we know.

I would really encourage everyone – not under the guise of fake friendship or anything like that – I would love to see that collaboration where they're both pushing and giving those data-driven insights to each other.”

What about landing pages? I mean, you often hear of paid search teams maybe having control over their own landing page software and it's not the same as what organic visitors land on.

Is it important for landing pages to be normal pages on a website?

“That's a good question. I think ideally, yes, right? Ideally, PPC wouldn't have to create their own landing pages that were separate or on a sub-domain from the website. Ideally, the PPC traffic is going to the main website as the SEO traffic is because it's also really difficult to push SEO traffic or organic traffic towards landing pages.

It very often does not go well. So, in an ideal world, PPC wouldn't have to do that, with that collaboration piece between the two.”

Okay, so what we're essentially saying is that we should probably start with top-of-the-funnel keyword phrases for landing pages that already exist on the main website and then together – paid search and SEO working together – optimise those landing pages so that traffic is driven from both paid search and SEO?

“Yeah, I would say so – and we've seen time and time again there are benefits to doing that.

Both can be rewarded by Google with the quality of traffic that goes on the website, and then that creates a snowball effect for both PPC and SEO. Ideally, if we can put all efforts towards that one landing page or one section of the website, that's a better outcome long-term for everyone involved.”

Are there certain metrics from paid search that SEOs need to look at in order to determine that it is actually worthwhile putting in extra effort to do things like building links to those pages to try and get them ranking higher?

“Absolutely, yeah. I think the main ones we'd be looking at are those conversion rates, of course – and that applies whether you're looking at an e-commerce brand, lead generation, or any kind of conversion really.

Conversion rates are a really important indicator of people's behaviour once they get to the website. Again, PPC can give those insights to SEO and say, ‘Hey, we're seeing great conversion rates on this page’ or ‘We're seeing weak conversion rates on this page, but the traffic's good and the click-through rates are good from the ads’ and then there's that missing piece there sometimes.

I think conversion rates are a really good indicator overall, and really good to compare actually. How does the conversion rate differ between organic traffic and paid traffic? What are the differences and how can we bridge those gaps between the two?”

Is there certain software that paid search teams use nowadays to determine which ads and which landing pages are most successful or is everything possible to do within Google Ads?

“Honestly, I think it's all possible and, if PPCs are doing their job properly, we are ideally using the best pages in regards to the ads and the keywords that we're using.

Ideally, when we create that keyword ad group plan from the get-go, we have those landing pages in mind that really closely match the search queries to encourage CTR, conversions, and the conversion rate that we see on our side.

Then similarly with SEO too, I think those metrics kind of work together really well.”

Are there any up-and-coming ad platforms that you'd also like to give a mention to as well that SEO should be aware of?

“We are actually seeing a big lift globally in the usage of Microsoft or Bing – Microsoft Ads or Bing Ads as people say.

What's really interesting is that this global search engine market share is actually up to 10% now, which obviously is not as much as Google, but I will say that Microsoft are working really hard to encourage both advertisers and agencies to utilise them a bit more.

When we've done that for our clients, we've actually seen lower CPCs than Google Ads, which is great. I think there are those misconceptions around Microsoft that it's people that are maybe less tech-savvy or older or don't change their default browser but actually, with the rise of remote working and Microsoft Teams and those sorts of things, people are definitely engaged with Microsoft a lot more than they have been previously.

When we've done a test between the two platforms for our clients, we have seen that the quality of traffic from Microsoft actually exceeds that of Google sometimes. A lot of us count it out, but I do think that there's a market there on Microsoft, and a growing market too.”

When SEOs do their job really well and end up ranking number 1 for the term that they've identified through the paid search team, and you've got both a paid ad and an organic ad ranking highly in Google, should the paid ad be turned off?

“There are two schools of thought here. I'll share them both, and then people can make their own minds up.

The first school of thought is to turn it off. Turn the paid ad off because you've got that number 1 spot organically so, technically, there's no need to have it. You can maybe use that budget towards something else. I think that works really well in a lot of cases and, if you're really confident in that first position staying, that's great.

In SEO, we are seeing more variations between where people search from, what time of day they search, and things like that in regards to what that top spot could potentially be. I think it's a little bit riskier in 2024 than that has been even a few years ago.

The other school of thought is to keep them both on to maximise the real estate you've got on the SERP. Again, that works really well too. Some brands consider that a waste of money and some brands do see that lift when you're in the very first position or very top-of-page for paid, and then you've got that organic listing right below.

There are definitely two different schools of thought there. In an ideal world, SEO would be the long-term strategy that does work and you don't need paid media anymore, but there are definitely two varying views on the best way to handle that situation.”

So in an ideal world, would the paid search team would be made redundant?

“I would never say that, but I do see SEO as the long-term win and paid media as the bridge in the interim.

In an ideal world, we wouldn't be made redundant; we'd go look at some other keywords that we can create ads for. But yeah, in an ideal world, SEO would get you that first-page listing and you'd be there 100% of the time and everything would be great.”

Do these thoughts apply to brand as well?

I've had paid search teams say to me in the past, ‘Look at our wonderful conversion rates and low cost per click!’ then you see that 90% of their campaign is brand, and that seems a bit frustrating.

“I think brand is a tricky one because there's always that threat of competitors bidding on your brand terms. I generally suggest keeping some brand on, but never enough to be 90% of your traffic.

It should be a very small proportion of the budget, and therefore a very small proportion of your PPC activity in general.

I think it's definitely important to separate brand and generic. Some people end up mixing the two together. You definitely want them separate. But I will say that there is always a little bit of a threat of those competitors who may bid on your brand terms, and that can go either way as well.”

Is it possible, through Google Ads, to identify when a competitor starts bidding on your brand and just bid on your brand then?

“It is possible, yes, but I would say there's a fair bit of manual effort involved in that – in terms of looking into the data and looking at auction insights on that particular campaign or those particular keywords.

I would generally keep brand terms on all the time, particularly if you're running upper funnel activity somewhere else like Meta, TikTok, or some other off-Google platform. I would suggest keeping brand terms on to capture that demand if the person decides not to click through, but remembers your brand and comes and finds you later.

But again, I would suggest a very small proportion of budget, effort, and time going towards that – and the rest being really focused on those generic middle funnel terms, where possible.”

You've shared what SEO should be doing in 2024. Now let's talk about what SEO shouldn't be doing. So, what's something that's seductive in terms of time, but ultimately counterproductive? What's something that SEO shouldn't be doing in 2024?

“In terms of SEOs, they obviously spend a lot of time on their research – diving into data and things like that – which is absolutely very important. But I do think we are seeing SEO versus PPC and SEO research versus PPC research.

If the two teams can really collaborate and coordinate on that research, and have some of those shared KPIs, it not only saves time from both sides but it's actually much more efficient for both sides to focus where they need to focus to reach those overarching goals.

For SEOs, stop doing your research in silo because PPC can support what you're doing – and vice versa as well. PPCs, stop doing your research in silo, include SEOs in that piece.

You'll reach your outcomes quicker, and it’s much more efficient than doing things in silo, for sure.”

Sophie Fell is Director of Paid Media at Two Trees PPC, and you can find her over at TwoTreesPPC.com.